Dialogue between Western and Muslim world

Colin McGrath

 

I set out on my trip to Pakistan and wondered where I was heading to and what I was going to do. I had the briefing notes and some background information - but I didn't know any of the other delegates and had such limited knowledge about Pakistan. The apprehension was ever present.
My first plane journey was my flight from Heathrow to Karachi. It was a long flight - nearly ten hours in total. On the display screen I could see that we were flying over all the countries that our television news channels always report from - which is never a good sign. Our flight made its way over Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and a plethora of the old Russian states that one can never pronounce.
We arrived in Karachi and it was only 5.30am but the first difference in Irish and Pakistan life was immediately evident. It was 35 degrees. I don't think it ever gets that hot in Ireland during the day - never mind in the middle of the night!
One sight that greeted us that would become a topic of conversation during the week was that of the McDonalds which faces you when you exit the arrivals hall of Karachi airport. Surely, Pakistan was not going to be another out-port for the USA?
We travelled to our hotel and were given some time to relax and catch up on our sleep.
Our first meeting was with a security attaché form the local High Commission - a meeting during which it is always better to close one's ears or else you would not move from the room again. We were told to take care with our security, never to drift off on our own and to be vigilant at all times. We were informed we would be guarded at all times and that transport had been arranged with security as a consideration. My mind wandered and thought was this how people were greeted to the North of Ireland during our troubles. We're people told to be mindful of security, to travel in different ways and to be extra vigilant? I thought that it probably was the case and that so much of our beautiful North was left unexplored and lost to the official visitor. I had concerns that I was to spend a week in Pakistan seeing only the inside of Western hotels.
After a quick greeting we departed from the Hotel and went to meet with the Speaker of the Assembly of Sindh, Syed Muzafar Hussain Shah. During our discussions with the Speaker he outlined to us the role of the Assembly and the powers that it has. Mr. Hussain also took time to discuss what he felt were the problems facing the people of the region. He outlined poverty, poor education and health infrastructures and low employment as barriers to full participation with-in the society of Sindh. He further outlined some of the steps the Government of Sindh was taking to alleviate these issues. After our discussions and a presentation by the Speaker of gifts to the Western delegation we departed for a short tour of the city of Karachi.
The city seems to be exceptionally poor in some areas and exceptionally rich in others. I was soon to gather that this was a common theme in Pakistan - such extremes in economic distribution. There seemed to be a whole social strata, that we have in the West, which was missing from Pakistani life. This is difficult to comprehend - a society of simply those that have and those that have not.
Our next visit was to the University of Karachi and a meeting with the International Relations Department. I went to the University of Ulster and thought that the surroundings that I studied in were somewhat grim with rooms that needed a lick of paint; corridors that needed some more light. In the University of Karachi the classrooms were impoverished with a mismatch of chairs surrounding old rickety tables and walls that could not hold paint because of their state. When we arrived to Karachi University it was, as indeed Pakistan is, gripped in a shortage of electricity. There was a power cut. In Karachi when it is 42 degrees outside you need electric to drive the air-con, without it conditions are anything but conducive to education.
I was shocked to see that students and faculty staff remained behind in the soaring heat to meet us. They greeted us warmly and questioned us intently and seemed genuinely interested in what we had to say. I caught from these individuals an infectious will to learn, to better oneself, to achieve. Their thirst for knowledge was passion-driven - a passion for education, a passion for politics, a passion for relations between our two worlds.
This was also our first insight into what the thoughts of Pakistani people were, from those that had no office or title to hide behind in the delivery of the issues. I began to realise the importance that the educated stratum places on the Middle East situation. Hamas, the old terrorist grouping in Palestine recently won elections in their country. Western Super-powers demanded and supported the elections but did not like the result and now do not support the government of Palestine and are imposing economic sanctions on the country. The Pakistani people do not sit easy with this alleged 'Double-standard' of 'support democracy, but only when we like the results'.
At the university we had our first of what would be many conversations on the issue of religion. Although from the Western world we were not representing any particular religion, our group was made up of Catholic, Protestant, Islamic and non-practising individuals. However, Pakistan is an Islamic state and therefore 90% of the population practices the Islamic faith. From the West we have been taught to fear the Islamic faith. It is seen as something difficult, rigid, draconian and restrictive. Some of the Sharia law, stoning of adulterers and gay people, cutting the hands off thieves, etc, is difficult for Westerners to grasp albeit as a concept rather than an actual practice.
The conversations with the university students and staff were fascinating. To see how they learn, the thirst they have for academia and the leadership the staff provide was awesome. We certainly had a solid grounding for the week ahead.
During our visit the seven of us from the Western delegation were to become media specialists. We had in Karachi our first of many television and radio interviews which we would give during our stay.
My first interview was with a television channel that had a political programme for younger viewers. There was a panel of one from each of the Western party's represented in the delegation and a local journalist together with a member of the local Assembly. A gathered audience of 20 people prepared to question us - but not before the host had her chance. The second of the main issues of the week was raised here - the war in Iraq. There appears to be an assumption that all Westerners supported the war in Iraq. That was not the case and the Pakistanis were confused by this. Members of our delegation explained that the Liberal Democrats and SDLP voted against the war and that the Conservatives now appear anti-interventional. I explained that from my position in the North of Ireland I was unlikely to support British forces entering another countries jurisdiction and assuming control and asserting its authority. This seemed to be popular with the Pakistani audience. Further discussion followed and one topic focused on the problem of domestic violence. In Pakistan there is no real support for women in such predicaments and a 'loose' law exists to prosecute the man - but the woman would have little life left in the wake of any such prosecution. The Assemblyman present felt that with this being the case it was better not to pursue any legislation. I suggested legislation might be useful to establish and endorse protection for women pursing domestic violence cases and to provide suitable care for women in such situations. I do not feel that my suggestions were being met with any real enthusiasm.
Our first official dialogue took place in Karachi on the second day. The theme for the dialogue was the 'State of Relations between the Western world and the Muslim world'. I made opening remarks on the topic and discussed how there is a problem with perceptions. In my remarks I stated how 'We perceive there to be a problem. We sense there to be a problem and, in turn, we then expect there to be a problem.' I feel that this concept which I discussed managed to become a recurring theme during all of the dialogues. The concept of different perceptions and the problems that these perceptions lead to was discussed at length during the various dialogues. I likened the problems in relations at present to that of the Irish situation in the 1970's and 1980's. Back then the IRA managed to ensure that the British public feared the Irish accent. Now a select few from the Muslim world have created the same fear amongst Westerners - this time fearing the youthful Muslim skin.
As a group we also encountered a recurring notion during this discussion - that as Westerners we supported all of the decisions taken by the United States administration. We took time to explain that this was not the case and that people such as Irish Premier Bertie Ahern and British PM Tony Blair have actually been stabilising influences on President Bush. This notion took time to sink in and I do not think that it was fully understood.
After the dialogue and several radio interviews we departed as a group and travelled to the residence of the Governor of Sindh Dr. Ishrat-Ul-Ebad. Dr Ishrat was a most welcoming host and spent some time discussing with us the economic problems facing the Sindh region and the work his administration is undertaking to sort these issues. As an educationalist I wished to discuss the state of the education system with-in the region and what steps the Governor was taking to enhance the educational experience of children in southern Pakistan. The Governor explained that he has reviewed local government procedures and passed many powers to local politicians to ensure that they can adequately meet local needs. This seemed to be a system gaining some momentum and was beginning to roll-out universal education for all.
Next we flew northwards and travelled to the capital of Balochistan, Quetta. A city of altitude one could immediately notice the effect of less air. During the flight I was struck by the lack of cities, towns and villages below. Balochistan appeared to be a barren, mountainous region with little agriculture or industrial infrastructure. The city of Quetta appeared like any other, though it had noticeably less affluence than its sister-city Karachi.
Balochistan had more of the 'feel' of a Middle Eastern country. It looked like the Palestine and Iraq's I saw on television. There was lots of space. Barren areas coloured by the desert sand. If a camel had past me by I would not have been surprised. The contrast to the greenery of Ireland was stark.
Our stay in Quetta was to be short and business-like. A meeting with the Governor and then onto a dialogue, bed and off to the next city. That quick.
We went to meet the governor in his official residence and he was a very accommodating host. We met the Honourable Owais Ahmad Ghani and he spent over an hour detailing the issues that affect his region. A major problem facing the area is the poppy trade from Afghanistan. He remarked that over 50% of the West's Heroin comes from the poppy fields of Afghanistan and some makes its was through to Pakistan. The Governor explained how he was looking for US assistance to help eradicate this problem which has obvious social order connotations for the entire region. Next the Governor entertained us to an eight-course lunch after which we had difficulty in moving, never mind progressing to a five-hour dialogue.
The theme for the dialogue in Quetta was 'Extremism and Violence'. Balochistan was of particular interest to me because it has an active terrorist organisation locally that wishes to pursue any means to achieve greater autonomy from the Pakistan government. A sizable number of the population support this call and quietly overlook the extremist behaviour. During our stay, and just 5km from our Hotel, six police officers were killed in a series of bomb attacks on a police training college.
The dialogue started and we presented our cases. There was a general consensus that political voids often lead to extremist behaviour and this can quickly descend into violence.
A discussion followed and a consensus was achieved by both Western representatives and by the Pakistan representatives that our world community has three elements - Westerners, Muslims and terrorists. This was a move on from the notion that we had terrorists (often suggested that they are state sponsored) and they had terrorists (a rogue element including the likes of Bin Laden). The premise that we both have terrorists and what they do should be condemned and not allowed to become the norm or socially acceptable was discussed and agreed by both panels.
We also discussed how the extremist or terrorist often has their own agenda to follow and that this often differs slightly from the agenda of the cause they tell the public they are following. Another facet of the dialogue was the use of young people, as the most vulnerable to ideological influence and how they are often trapped into terrorist organistaions and 'selected' to carry out the worst atrocities.
Poverty was a recurring theme and one need only look around Pakistan to see why. Poverty is an ideal breading ground in which to catch people and encourage a sense of despair and then provide leadership to 'help' them out. If this process is being carried out by extremists and terrorists then that is the leadership they get. The results are often fatal. Poverty is often a breeding ground into which the extremist will focus his attentions to recruit.
Many members of the Balochistan National Party took time after the conference to discuss the situation in the North of Ireland with me. They were keen to understand the processes that we undertook to sort the problem in the North out. I often had to remind people that the problem in the North is anything but sorted out. We have removed violence - but the united Ireland we still yearn for is still far off. This confused them as the international community understand the problems to be resolved.
The next morning we flew up to Lahore which is a large city on the East of Pakistan in the Punjab region. This was to be one of our shortest stays. We arrived at 12pm and left at 5am the next morning.

Shortly after arriving we moved straight into the dialogue with a fresh round of seven Pakistani participants to discuss their thoughts with us. The theme for today's dialogue was 'Democracy'.
Democracy is a subject that inspires much conversation in Pakistan. At its core, we have two different concepts of democracy. We have the type of democracy that we have in the West and we do not see anything less as acceptable. Pakistan, whilst under a military dictatorship, sees itself as having democracy. It took time to thrash out this subject.
I also got a sense that the people in the North of Pakistan understood the Military dictatorship they lived in to be less of a problem than those in the South or West of the country. Possibly the proximity to the administration of their democracy brought a closer allegiance to it.
The difficult issue of mixing religion and state affairs was discussed. Pakistan is an Islamic state and adheres to the teachings of the Islamic tradition. Some elements of the Islamic faith are difficult for Westerners to understand. The case discussed was Sharia law. In the West we have difficulty understanding why any person should be stoned to death. To us it seems barbaric and inhumane. We have difficulties understanding how this lies within the context of a society that promotes human rights. Surely stoning someone to death is an infringement on their human rights? The members of the Pakistani delegation didn't have a problem with this issue because it is not carried out in practice. However we felt that to even have it in the statute books was an infringement on human rights. We also felt that this was also an example of double standards - an accusation made at the West earlier in the week. Discussion continued detailing how the Islamic faith is used as a sign of guidance in state affairs rather than a diktat of laws. The point was made that in the West we too use religion as an influence - i.e. it influences the morals and values of the politician, however if someone chooses to speak out against any religion they do not have to fear for the repercussions in exercising their freedom to speech.
After a short sleep and an early start we progressed to the longest day we had during our week-long stay. We flew first from Lahore to Islamabad and then quickly stopped off to leave our things at the hotel and then embarked on a three-hour journey by mini-van to Peshawar a city close to the Afghanistan border.
The journey was rough. If there is one thing more rough and dangerous than the state of roads in Pakistan it is the drivers on the rough and dangerous roads in Pakistan. At many moments during my six-hour return experience on this road between the two cities in Northern Pakistan my heart was firmly in my mouth. Fear gripped me. However, the bedlam and madness on the road somehow seems to work and we arrived safely.
Today's dialogue was on the theme of 'Clash of Civilisations - myth or reality'.
The main point for discussion was the differences perceived or otherwise that exists between our two societies. I suggested in my opening remarks that 'The Christian and the Muslim may dislike each other because they deem each other as different. This difference may breed fear, concern, or even an unwillingness to get to know the other individuals…' This difference perceived or otherwise can contribute to a clash between civilisations.
The youth of our society are easily influenced. If the influences that they are receiving are from a terrorist organisation then they are going to lean towards terrorist views. In our societies we do not do enough to learn about each others cultures and traditions and the net result is a culture void - a gap in our knowledge of other cultures. It is this void that extremists and terrorists are manipulating to attempt and direct young people towards a terrorist path.
By this stage of the conference the views were beginning to blend into the same pattern and we were hearing the same issues, which only underscores the importance that Pakistani members placed upon these ideas. Again we heard that Sharia law was an issue, the Middle East situation and the double standards of the West were raised once again.
We travelled back to Islamabad and enjoyed once again the road journey. During my road journey I got time to speak with one of the participants from the dialogue. During this conversation I questioned him about some of the laws that he must adhere to as a citizen of Pakistan. He explained to me that not all the laws were kept to all the time and issues such as alcohol were not so strictly adhered to. Also he said that stoning adulterers or gay people did not really happen in actuality. This confused me because this individual was the biggest advocate of protecting Sharia law during the dialogue. I began to sense that there is a psyche in the Pakistani community that says 'it doesn't happen, well it does, but we just pretend it doesn't'.
Our final day was based in Islamabad and the final dialogue was really a chance to sum up on all the issues that we had discussed during the week and an opportunity to bring closure to the dialogues and look to the future and ways to keep the dialogue alive.
In conclusion I feel that the week was an excellent opportunity for two sets of global citizens to spend time identifying areas of common ground that exists between our two worlds. This process took honesty and self-criticism to achieve.
There was an over-whelming identification of the need for education. Education to the people of Pakistan that cannot access it and to all those in educated systems in either sphere an opportunity to learn about each other's worlds, religions, cultures and traditions. Education should extend to allow the free movement of individuals involved in education. Cultural exchanges could take place between our young people. Our teachers could exchange and share ideas on how best to share our cultures amongst our youth. Universities could allow students to spend a year learning in each other'ss seats of education. These experiences by young students could develop a lifetime of sharing positive information about each other's communities. Individuals must be seen as stones in streams - they can cause ripples of information to be extended to the people around them.
The issue of media was raised at several points in the week. The power of the media is never under estimated by any consummate politician, but there is a need for the media to stop dramatising the schisms that exist between a selected few from one community and translating the actions they take as being a standard for that whole community. We explored this and determined that those that completed 9/11 and 7/7 etc., were terrorists first and foremost. Therefore it is not fair to taint all Muslims as being terrorists. Some joint standard should be achieved by journalist collectives to ensure this misreporting does not continue.
The discussions about human rights were difficult. What Westerners perceive differs from that of the Muslim perspective and we must deal with this. A special investigative body of the UN should explore the realms of this and how a Human Rights charter that is acceptable to all could be developed.
A special task force needs to be established to explore the support that poverty is extending to the cause of extremism. People from impoverished backgrounds are more susceptible to the causes of extremism - not physically through participation in action but in their support for the cause. People must have a basic education to learn that society cannot accept the actions of the people that caused 9/11 or 7/7. These actions should be condemned. An education of tolerance and understanding and an education of acceptance of others should remove much of the support for extremists.
We accept that in our world there are many unresolved conflicts. The problem in Palestine, the state of Iraq and the future problems in Afghanistan are all net results of problems that the West had turned their backs on and now have to re-address. The fires of unresolved conflicts must be extinguished completely or the flames of hatred will return with more fervour than before. The onus must be on the international community en mass to complete this and not one or two 'Super-Powers'. A UN strategy must be developed and supported to sort these problems once and for all.
There were many more issues that were discussed, but those outlined are the areas I feel I contributed most to. Other participants will have other issues.
After our dialogue we travelled to the Joint Department of Women and Youth and met with State Minister Ms. Sumaira Malik. A most gracious host, Ms. Malik took time to discuss the work of her department, which she only assumed responsibility for quite recently. Ms. Malik and her officials took time to detail the priorities her department has and how they intend to tackle them. I was most pleased to hear that a Youth Policy is presently being prepared for the State Cabinet and was gratified to accept the Ministers request to read the document and provide any comments after it has received Cabinet approval. I intend to carry out this request with diligence, honour and full awareness of the ramifications my input might have to enhance the impact government has on our most precious shared commodity - our youth populations.
The experience of the trip was immense.
On a deeply personal level I feel I gained a significant amount of confidence. By participating, contributing in debates, giving TV and radio interviews and speaking with the most eminent members of Pakistani life created a feeling of self-worth about one's contribution and to have my contributions appreciated by such eminent individuals further developed this sense of self-worth.
The process of the dialogue helped to educate me about the world of the Muslim. I have had limited exposure to the Muslim world or way of life and when I contributed to dialogues and stated that we must educate our young to assist them to develop an appreciation for each other, my thoughts were being delivered with a sense of realism to me - as I did not know much about the Muslin world, I was dubious of Muslim individuals, I had been sucked in by the very media I spent all week complaining about. My involvement has changed my perspective. I met with Muslims and thankfully these meetings challenged the perceptions I held.
I enjoyed getting to see Pakistan. It was pretty much as I expected it, although I was surprised that there was so much wealth. Maybe I was exposed to more of it than the poverty side of society. I do feel like I missed meeting a whole layer of the Pakistani community and this would be the largest section - the ordinary Pakistani individual. What are their thoughts and views, what do they think about westerners, what do they think about events such as 9/11 or 7/7, what do they think about extremism and terrorism?
The next steps are essential. I intend to submit this report to my party and I would like to see it contribute to the North South work that we pursue on the island of Ireland. Racist attacks are increasing in Ireland and I would like to meet with the Irish Foreign Affairs Minister to explain my observations of Muslim life and some of the issues that were highlighted. Maybe policy could be developed to ensure the education of all about the Muslim world. This could prevent future attacks - or at least the ones based on ignorance and fear.
I would like to see PILDAT organising a website on the topic of the dialogues. Through this website members that participated might communicate with each other through on-line discussions and notice boards, etc. Information regarding future meetings and contact details of individuals involved could be included. This could be easily accessed by all in Pakistan and the West.
I would like to arrange meetings with the individuals who set the curriculum for our school children to access what information is passed to our young people on the theme of the Muslim world and to look at ways to develop and enhance this.
I would like to meet with groups that represent Muslim interests in Ireland to help them in their work and to act as a conduit to government and party politics; so their interests may be adequately represented.
I would like to utilise my experiences in Pakistani to raise awareness of the issues in the country; the great strides that it is taking to assist the War on Terror and the leaps it is taking as a population and a society. The work is being carried out by the Pakistani society, but the appreciation is not forthcoming from the Western world. This must be frustrating for them.
I want to finally thank the organisers, PILDAT for the excessive hard work undertaken to provide me with such an educationally enlightening, culturally enriching and thoroughly enjoyable experience. And I would like to recommend this experience for members of political parties in the future.

(Colin McGrath is Councillor of the Social Democratic and Labour Party of Northern Ireland).